Why has this pub in Dulwich been vacant for twelve years?

Twelve years after Lordship Lane’s old Harvester closed down after a fire in the kitchen, the Dulwich Estate-owned building and land remain derelict. Why has the pub been left to rot? And will it ever be redeveloped?

What happened to the Grove Tavern?

The Grove Tavern Pub closed following a fire in August 2012 after Stonegate, who leased the building from freeholder Dulwich Estate, chose not to refurbish it.

Before 2011, it was a relatively popular Harvester. But after Stonegate took it on, they failed to make a success of it, leading some to speculate the moderate kitchen fire had been a 'good excuse' to pack it in.

Since then the decaying, boarded-up ‘eyesore’ - which has 24-hour security to fend off squatters - has become a bone of contention with frustrated residents.

The 54,000-square-foot site, the equivalent of 19 tennis courts, remains leased to Stonegate until September 2025.

The pub company, currently in debt for more than £3bn, has been continuously paying rent to the Dulwich Estate, despite not having occupied the space for well over a decade.

The old Harvester, taken in 2008 by Ewan Munro (wikicommons)

Unloved and unused, a group of skaters saw potential…

During lockdown, a big empty car park presented some local skaters with an opportunity.

In 2020, whilst on furlough, an imaginative group decided to build a DIY skatepark in the pub’s empty grounds.

The group of regulars were soon joined by more fans, who set to work building skate equipment and even setting up a communal garden.

Tilly Yoyo, 52, from West Dulwich, first got involved by donating materials for the makeshift park. After seeing what the new meeting place meant to people she quickly became its honorary caretaker.

https://southwarknews.co.uk/news/heres-how-dulwich-skaters-built-their-own-community-hub-in-an-old-car-park/

The group were threatened with eviction but managed to win the council, Stonegate and Dulwich Estate around. It was clear they were looking after the site more than anyone had for years.

The skatepark was given indefinite permission to stay and although many of its founders have moved on, Tilly says the park is still loved and well-used by local kids and families. “Some come in just to chill out,” she added.

Tilly added that the 24/7 security - paid for by Stonegate to prevent squatters - doesn’t bother the skaters. As for whether the skatepark could ever become permanent, that would depend on whatever happens to the site.

Unloved and unused, the skaters moved in

What is Dulwich Estate and what powers does it have?

The Dulwich Estate is a registered charity covering around 5,000 homes and 80 shops, restaurants and pubs in Dulwich Village, West Dulwich, East Dulwich, and the Southwark half of Herne Hill. Founded in 1619, it sets out rules governing what can and can't be built in these areas.

Barbara Richardson, who lives within the Estate, said: "When you want to do anything to the outside of your house you need a licence, and you have to pay for it."

Across the 653,400 square foot area where the Estate is freeholder, you can expect to pay a £210 fee just to request permission to cut down a tree and £328 for a licence to replace a window.

There's also a tollgate, costing £1.20 each time, aimed at limiting vehicles and environmental damage to the area.

And under the Estate rules, you are not allowed to have solar panels where they can be seen from the road.

"So, on one hand, they’re saying they will preserve the beauty of Dulwich and they pursue homeowners rigorously," Barbara continued "yet they leave the Grove looking like this."

This is all whilst Estate residents have to pay a management fee of between £67-£200 a year on top of council tax.

She said when it came to the Estate, it felt like an 'unsaid rule' was in place: “Do as we say, not as we do.”

Locals are fed up with waiting for answers

Barbara told us: “When people walk up and down Lordship Lane, it’s a horrendous image of Dulwich.”

“The Estate is completely silent on it," she added, claiming that last year, she wrote to the new CEO of the Estate asking about plans for The Grove but received no response.

Ian McInnes has lived in the area since the ‘80s and said he ‘could not understand’ why the Estate would leave it and do nothing.

He said in his role as chair of Dulwich Society, they were always asking the Dulwich Estate for answers, to no avail.

“I just don’t think they care,” he commented.

Whilst they are still receiving the rent, the Estate does not have to be responsible for the space and what happens to it. However, under the terms of the lease, Stonegate must maintain the building and surrounding area.

This has led to the obvious question of why the Estate doesn’t forfeit the lease entirely.

Well, they might not want to.

How much is Stonegate paying the Estate to lease the vacant space?

Unfortunately, no one is entirely sure. But past suggestions have been in the region of £100,000 a year, or as much as £250,000, although neither the Dulwich Estate nor Stonegate would answer this question when asked.

In May, when we asked the Dulwich Estate (DE) why it hadn’t forfeited the lease, we were told: “For the last 36 months the Estate has been trying to open a dialogue with the company and a possible lease surrender.

“The MP and Southwark Council have likewise made representations.”

Their spokesperson vaguely added: “They have not come forward with an adequate response and so will continue to review what options we have.”

A happier time: Before it was a Harvester, The Grove was a hotel. This is what it looked like in the 1930s.

Southwark Council and the Estate can’t agree on what the site should be.

The area has two planning authorities: the Estate and Southwark Council.

At one stage, it did appear as though the council and estate were working together to redevelop the site, but these ‘informal conversations’ failed to reach any concrete decisions.

The Estate favoured residential and commercial development on the site, whilst the council still wanted a pub.

Cllr Helen Dennis, Cabinet Member for New Homes & Sustainable Development, made the council’s last statement on the matter: “Having any building sat empty for so many years is far from ideal.

“We would be very happy to see the pub return to use and would also welcome plans from the owner that delivered benefit for the local community.”

Could housing be built on the site?

In 2017, as part of its landmark document the Southwark Plan, the council highlighted that 63 flats could be built on the site of the former pub.

Resident Ian McInnes believes this to be the best option going forward, given the 17,700 people on the social housing waiting list.

"Personally, I see it as an opportunity to build social housing,” he said. “We need that."

Since they own the land, the council would need permission from Dulwich Estate to do this.

The building sits on a conservation area.

The pub sits within the Dulwich Wood conservation area, meaning anything that is built there must enhance and preserve aspects of the local area.

It also means plans are scrutinised more closely, which explains why it may be so hard for them to agree.

However, the council does have the power to make whoever has allowed the area to get into disrepair to fix it i.e. Dulwich Estate (as the landowner) and Stonegate (as the tenant).

It could have been a McDonald's.

In 2013, with the site vacant, McDonald's put in an offer to occupy it. The big space was perfect for a drive-thru restaurant.

But this offer was turned down by the Dulwich Estate, due to concerns over the image this would portray of the area.

McDonald's wanted a drive-thru there - but the Estate said 'no' (photo: McDonald's Rye Lane, Google Maps)

What does the community want it to be?

In 2017, the Dulwich Society held a public meeting attended by 40 residents, who were all asked for their views on the space.

"There was a small majority that said they wanted a pub," former chair, Ian, told us, "but there was no overall consensus."

However, all unanimously agreed the site should be better taken care of.

https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/dulwich/residents-want-answers-future-dulwichs-old-grove-tavern/

Is it even a viable place for a pub?

Before Stonegate first took it over in 2011, it was a reasonably popular Harvester. Cheap food and spacious parking worked in its favour for families.

But what it became after didn’t seem to work as well. Reviews online suggested food standards had dropped but prices had risen. When the main attraction slipped, the location didn’t look so good anymore.

It’s well known that it’s a tough market for pubs right now. According to data from the British Beer and Pub Association, 509 UK pubs closed last year.

A few doors down at 481 Lordship Lane, there is a failed restaurant spot. It went from being a Spanish tapas joint called Barcelona which ‘was never very busy’, to a bar (Dulwich Beer Dispensary) in 2019: neither was very successful. The bar closed in 2022. Since January 2024, it has been up for lease via estate agents Hindwoods.

As the end of the Grove’s lease draws nearer, a business recently expressed interest in bringing a pub restaurant back to the site.

But by now, the needs of the community might have changed.

Barcelona Tapas, 483 Lordship Lane, 2017 (photo: Google Maps)

What has Stonegate said?

A spokesperson from Stonegate told us they would maintain the security of the site until their lease is up in September 2025.

From then on, they said: “The Dulwich Estate will determine the future of the site.”

And the Estate?

The Estate did say they were ‘concerned about the poor state of the land and building’ and were working to ‘bring about improvement.’

But in terms of the future of the site - the Estate is as mysterious as ever. Residents told us the Estate used to hold regular meetings where anyone living within their boundaries could air their frustrations - but Barbara said there 'hadn't been one in years.'